November 23rd, 2019, 02:23 PM | #1 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Michael
Location: California
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Running too rich..
I know there is a VAST AMOUNT of threads dealing with this, unfortunately there is a vast amount of data both valuable and worthless. So many contain arguing and other useless stuff.
This is the situation: I purchased a 2005 ex250 that "only needs the carbs cleaned real quick". Turns out the gas was rotten, the carbs were gunked up, the oil filter was installed all out of order and one of the screws went through the gas tank. Anything else, oh yeah most of the electrical connections were corroded, the engine oil was at least half gasoline. So after much cleaning, grumbling and cussing it runs. Well, sort of. Way too rich. After removing the carbs yet again and cleaning yet again it still is way too rich and won't idle at anything less than 2000. If the air/fuel screws are completely closed it still runs at idle and still way too rich. The carbs have been opened and cleaned so many times I can do it blindfolded. There seems to be nothing physically wrong or out of place. Borrowed a set of virginal unmolested carbs from a 2009 and looked in the bowls, a leaner main jet but the same mid range jet were installed. The idle air/fuel jets are still plugged from the factory. So I installed them. Bike started fine, Revs fine, but too rich. The idle is still way too high as well. The plugs were originally way dirty due to being way too rich and having stuck floats. They look just a little too rich now. I was hoping that since these carbs were unmolested that it would help. Unfortunately it did not. I am new to the ninja, but not new to bikes or cars at all. I am also assisted by a master ASE technician with decades of experience. We are both stumped. I just recently did the exact same thing to my Harley that sat with gas in it for 7 years, and got it running easily. This ninja has not sat that long at all. Any help would be much appreciated. Thank you. |
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December 9th, 2019, 02:43 PM | #2 |
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Name: Kyle
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Edit: Wait you say the air/fuel screws can be closed but they are still plugged from the factory?
I'd drill out those idle air mixture screws and give them a good cleaning. 2k is going to start touching into your needle so your slow circuit is the problem and I'd say those air mixture screws are the culprit. There's rubber O rings in there that will need replacing. I mangled one of them on installation and had an air leak once. Spent a few months chasing jetting and when I replaced that O ring everything was dandy again. Also, did you start with fresh plugs? |
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December 9th, 2019, 02:46 PM | #3 |
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I'd also go for a bench synch on those butterfly valves. Also check to make sure the rubber diaphragms aren't torn.
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December 9th, 2019, 03:03 PM | #4 |
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I want to know how he determined mixtures were "too rich"???
Some repeatable process with measurable and presentable numbers would be nice so we can replicate testing on our side. |
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December 10th, 2019, 06:43 PM | #5 |
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..
Edit: Wait you say the air/fuel screws can be closed but they are still plugged from the factory?
Two sets of carbs........ As far as too rich, you can smell it. We have a gas analyzer here, but it isn't needed. It's rich enough to burn the eyes in an open carport. AND it still runs at idle with the idle screws closed. Yes brand new plugs as well. Found out the wrong plugs were installed as well. apparently it had the cold weather plugs. Probably going to send these carbs to ducatiman this week. Just been rained in and fogged in the last week as well as struggling with other vehicle problems.
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Bikes from small to large.....2005 Ninja 250 --- 1974 Harley XLCH 1000 --- 2006 Harley XL1200C Not as old as the picture to the left makes me look, just feel that way sometimes. |
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December 10th, 2019, 07:14 PM | #6 |
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Great choice! I wasted 2-weeks (~25hrs), tonnes of home remedies and gallons of “carb cleaner” sprays before sending my carbs to ducatiman. They came back brand new!
Would be interesting to find out source of fuel for idle with pilot screws fully closed. |
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December 10th, 2019, 09:43 PM | #7 |
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Ducatiman is the man.
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December 29th, 2019, 05:51 PM | #8 |
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Done, boxed, ready to start the journey home via Post Office Monday morning.
Discovered hogged out pilot jets .002" over, replaced with stock 38's, also a sticking decel valve. I believe these 2 issues were accounting for overage of fuel. Otherwise, performed split, all the usual, new consumables, set up, wet tested....as clean inside as out. Anxious to see (read) how they do. (note pics were taken prior to final assembly, missing throttle control cable and a hose)
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December 30th, 2019, 12:19 AM | #9 | |
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Quote:
What causes decel valve to stick? Stuck open or closed? Would symptoms be popping and crackling when coasting? |
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December 30th, 2019, 10:19 AM | #10 |
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Carbs came to me without vac hoses. Can't vouch for sealing efficiency for ones used previously, but my replacements are confirmed *tight* both at lower carb location (between) and upper location at decel valve. I've posted before about encountering a trend of loose fitting vac hoses. If they are loose on the bench, they'll only be worse under heated running conditions and demand correction.
As the decel valve "action" is largely dependent on the sealing integrity of same vac hoses, I can't vouch for previous valve function. I did a minor polishing tweak, should do the trick. It was in fact stuck closed upon initial disassembly on the bench. Was it sticking open or hanging up as well, in previous running conditions? Possible too, but again, I can't vouch for that. Can only take preventive repair measures as I see fit based on findings within very close inspection on the bench. Another extreme option...replace the entire valve. Nevertheless, I'm anxious to hear results after these corrections. I'm hopeful of success and a return to acceptable running performance. And I'm always willing to work with member @Fixit going forward as needed.
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December 30th, 2019, 09:16 PM | #11 |
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I'm having some popping on closed-throttle decel, so I suspect something's not working with my decel valve. Will check vacuum hose seal first. Thanks!
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December 31st, 2019, 05:38 PM | #12 |
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Name: Michael
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twiddling the fingers.....
Awaiting a box in the mail.
Currently the tracking says Saturday by 8PM........ So here I wait, and wait.
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Bikes from small to large.....2005 Ninja 250 --- 1974 Harley XLCH 1000 --- 2006 Harley XL1200C Not as old as the picture to the left makes me look, just feel that way sometimes. |
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January 2nd, 2020, 08:20 PM | #13 |
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It's here, it's here !
Lazily checking on the tracking that said Saturday, lo and behold it says delivered!
So i walk out to the porch to look and find a dented box. Opened the box and it appears to be ok. Cannot install or anything tonight as I have to leave. I may install this after work tomorrow if my sister doesn't come to see me. Or it will be Saturday. Very anxious to install and test. Thank you @ducatiman
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Bikes from small to large.....2005 Ninja 250 --- 1974 Harley XLCH 1000 --- 2006 Harley XL1200C Not as old as the picture to the left makes me look, just feel that way sometimes. |
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January 2nd, 2020, 08:39 PM | #14 |
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Even with holiday, Post Office did ok, 'cept for rough treatment. Thats actually rare in my experience, a pretty good history of handling.
Matter of fact, I can't think of 1 instance of missing or damaged carbs....coming or going.
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January 3rd, 2020, 08:01 AM | #15 |
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In the meantime, i'd guess you've verified proper petcock on-off vacuum function?
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January 3rd, 2020, 07:05 PM | #16 |
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Yup
We've checked that a few times.
Hopefully the ski does not fall in the morning as I plan on installing some carbs.
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Bikes from small to large.....2005 Ninja 250 --- 1974 Harley XLCH 1000 --- 2006 Harley XL1200C Not as old as the picture to the left makes me look, just feel that way sometimes. |
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January 3rd, 2020, 07:33 PM | #17 |
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January 4th, 2020, 06:00 PM | #18 |
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Installed.
So much better. Does not burn the eyes to stand anywhere near it.
We made a small adjustment to the pilot screws as it seemed the tiniest bit rich. There is a weird thing going on. (even before the adjustment, if that's what you just thought) It starts just fine and even idles around 1k, not the over 2k it was before. If you up the throttle the tiniest amount (up to 1.5k) it goes back to the 1k idle. If you raise it above 1.5k it then raises itself to 3k or more and stays there. Very occasionally it will lower itself to the idle of 1k. If you put it in gear and while holding the brake let out the clutch to draw the rpm to less than 1.5k it will then go back to 1k and stay there just fine. Any ideas about this? The stock airbox and exhaust are being used. The airbox is installed properly. The only thing non-stock at the moment is the California emissions tubes are not being used. @ducatiman sent the carbs back with the hose in place to eliminate the Ca. emissions. Thanks for the input.
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Bikes from small to large.....2005 Ninja 250 --- 1974 Harley XLCH 1000 --- 2006 Harley XL1200C Not as old as the picture to the left makes me look, just feel that way sometimes. |
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January 4th, 2020, 07:14 PM | #19 |
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I did set the pilot screws at the 2.5 turn accepted starting position.....
Further tuning will be in order starting from the inside and working out....in the thread here, no mention was ever made regarding valve clearances. I'd suggest getting that off the table next with a careful clearance check. These 250's are notorious for whacky running when valves are out to any degree. Afterwards, if no improvement, a synch using a reliable manometer. Then reset the pilot screws AFTER a ride...bike hot.....each side to its sweet spot. A proper delete of the entire Ca system should follow somewhere too, no comment there, as I'm not familiar.
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January 4th, 2020, 07:26 PM | #20 |
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did you have the opportunity to explore higher rpms and full temp performance as well?
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January 5th, 2020, 10:43 AM | #21 |
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sorta
The airbox and front half of the rear fender are installed, the rear half with the blinkers and plate as well as the tail section are not installed. Only rode around the neighborhood and did a couple miles of circles. Seemed to be ok up to about 35 or 40 mph. Did get it up to full temperature.
Have a video of the tachometer weirdness if anyone interested. Just unsure where to post it. Guess I'll have to check the valves later.
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Bikes from small to large.....2005 Ninja 250 --- 1974 Harley XLCH 1000 --- 2006 Harley XL1200C Not as old as the picture to the left makes me look, just feel that way sometimes. |
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January 8th, 2020, 10:38 AM | #22 |
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Verify your hose-ends are firmly clamped, such as vacuum-hose at petcock.
Also make sure rubber manifolds to head are not cracked or installed backwards and are firmly clamped on both ends. |
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January 11th, 2020, 08:13 PM | #23 |
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partial news.
The bike is all apart and naked.....
More missing and incorrect screws, washers and things like that. Getting too old to bend over in the cold due to arthritis and the like, so it was a trip to my local cheap tools source (harbor freight) to pick up a lift. So far the valves are a bit out of adjustment. More details to come. Was too cold to finish after all the other things I did today. As to @ducatiman Thanks for the carb work.
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Bikes from small to large.....2005 Ninja 250 --- 1974 Harley XLCH 1000 --- 2006 Harley XL1200C Not as old as the picture to the left makes me look, just feel that way sometimes. |
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January 20th, 2020, 07:11 PM | #24 |
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Valves are done . . .
I thoroughly dislike doing this job. Just had to say that.
The valves were out of adjustment. Worse it seems they weren't even the same from side to side as well as the inside and outside valves...... I think the last guy to do this may have forgot there are 2 of everything. Now to get it reassembled. Taking forever, not much time after work. It's also been in the 40's for the high temp.
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Bikes from small to large.....2005 Ninja 250 --- 1974 Harley XLCH 1000 --- 2006 Harley XL1200C Not as old as the picture to the left makes me look, just feel that way sometimes. |
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January 25th, 2020, 07:19 PM | #25 |
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This Ninja is killing me.
So The valves are all happy now. Some of the clearances were near zero to begin with.
Got the top of the motor back on, and the radiator installed. Decided to leave off the California emissions vacuum lines. Installed the gas tank and turned on the gas. There is a drip of fuel from the intake tube, labeled HOLDER-CARBURETOR 16065-1156 in the parts catalog. This is horribly frustrating seeing how we could not detect any leaking there before. AND THE CARBS WERE JUST REBUILT BY Ducatiman ! I think I might have added 5 miles to them before taking it apart to do the valves.
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Bikes from small to large.....2005 Ninja 250 --- 1974 Harley XLCH 1000 --- 2006 Harley XL1200C Not as old as the picture to the left makes me look, just feel that way sometimes. |
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January 25th, 2020, 07:49 PM | #26 |
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is the rubber manifold ripped?
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January 25th, 2020, 08:48 PM | #27 |
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Ripped?
Like myself, no, it isn't ripped.
Looks fine. Felt fine when reinstalling. But the more important part, the float musta stuck in order for fuel to be there. Also backed up by the fact that the cylinder locked due to fuel in it. Got too late to work on tonight. Will try tomorrow. But as with everything else not much time. I also have to move this weekend. Will post more info later.
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Bikes from small to large.....2005 Ninja 250 --- 1974 Harley XLCH 1000 --- 2006 Harley XL1200C Not as old as the picture to the left makes me look, just feel that way sometimes. |
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January 26th, 2020, 05:40 AM | #28 |
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if there is fuel dripping, the manifold has got an opening somewhere. Besides dripping out, intake is sucking air in as well.
If the clamps are not loose, manifolds are not ripped, seated and installed correctly (they are directional head and carb and marked as such) they should not leak at all. Is it the Left or Right side dripping? you need to remove and carefully examine the offending manifold. ************************************************************* "I think I might have added 5 miles to them before taking it apart to do the valves." explain? this was after receiving the carbs or before? ************************************************************* "Looks fine. Felt fine when reinstalling. But the more important part, the float musta stuck in order for fuel to be there. Also backed up by the fact that the cylinder locked due to fuel in it." Cylinder locked? Are you saying the crank is not able to rotate? I only wish I could be present at start ups, I've more questions, but lets cross this bridge first.
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January 26th, 2020, 10:29 AM | #29 |
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January 26th, 2020, 11:37 AM | #30 |
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more info
After receiving the carbs and installing them I went for roughly a five mile ride to warm it up (none of the rear section installed, so it was all in the neighborhood as no tail lights or license plate) We tried to get the idle adjusted properly. This is when the strange idle thing occured.
So it was all taken apart for a valve check. Upon reassembly the problem was discovered. The left manifold is what is leaking. Apparently the float stuck and filled the cylinder with gas as well as the crank will not rotate. So it's got to come apart again. In the middle of trying to move, and bidding on an ebay auction. Wil try to get more into it later.
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Bikes from small to large.....2005 Ninja 250 --- 1974 Harley XLCH 1000 --- 2006 Harley XL1200C Not as old as the picture to the left makes me look, just feel that way sometimes. |
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January 26th, 2020, 11:26 PM | #31 |
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Where is fuel coming out of left manifold? It should be completely sealed. Any petrol should remain internal. If it escapes, there is additional leak such as crack in manifold or loose hose-clamps.
Verify tank is clear of rust. And you have inline fuel-filter between petcock and carbs. Any bit of grit will jam petcock open and floats open. With emissions disconnected, what did you do with hoses going to tank? |
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January 27th, 2020, 05:41 PM | #32 |
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drip
The drip is coming from the front of the manifold, which happens to be the low end.
The hoses are reconfigured as per this : https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Hose_r...ine_fuel_tanks Bottom of page says : For California tanks without emissions-control systems Some people remove the evaporative emissions systems from their bikes, or install a replacement California tank on a 49 state bike. If you have a 3 line tank (California) but don't have the emissions devices, this is what you need to do: The right tube allows air into the fuel tank through the gas cap as the gas level drops. This tube must remain open. The middle tube is the drain and should keep the stock routing under the bike in the hose cluster (right-hand side of the frame, as discussed above). The left tube circulates fumes to the emissions system and should be capped off. The gas tank is completely cleaned, new gas, new filters on the petcock, filter in place in the fuel line before carb. Something on the seat? Maybe. Hope not. Will get it out soon for a look. The petcock is not currently vacuum operated as it was working when I started, yet like everything I touch these days it stopped working while I was working on it. Haven't found a replacement petcock for less than $100, but did find a rebuild kit I should order soon. Although this would not have prevented the problem of the stuck float or whatever it is.
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Bikes from small to large.....2005 Ninja 250 --- 1974 Harley XLCH 1000 --- 2006 Harley XL1200C Not as old as the picture to the left makes me look, just feel that way sometimes. |
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