What is it with cars these days?

[Apex]

It is all about refinement and "I don't want to take the time to learn where everything is, so I need a button where I can give voice commands. Really, it is a safety feature because I can keep my eyes on the road!"

I don't want a car with navigation. I don't want a car with bluetooth. Honestly, I don't want a car with a lot of creature comforts. Do I need heated seats? No. Do I want all this extra stuff that comes standard? Heck no.

I miss the old days where switches and levers were used to get things done. For one, they rarely broke, and if they did, they were insanely cheap (and easy) to fix. These days, with cars being all computerized, they try to sell it off as "this will tell you when a part fails on the car, it reduces troubleshooting time". Well, I do recall my 1969 Chevy C-10 with a 454...if I had a fuel problem, I knew it was one of three things: fuel pump, fuel filter, or carb. I had backups that stayed in the truck for those "just in case" moments. If I had a spark problem, I'd check the coil, distributor, cables or plugs. Yes, I had spares of these as well (well cap, rotor, two long plug cables, a coil and a plug). I didn't need a computer to tell me this is wrong or that is wrong.

Oh, and I really don't appreciate you trying to cram the electronics of an F-16 into the engine bay that barely holds a 1.6L engine. Hmmm..what do electronics not like...heat. Yeah, this sounds like a GREAT idea.

Am I alone in thinking that cars are going way to far? Yeah it is all about gas mileage right now, so the electronic throttle bodies, and all that junk is great for that. What about the tried and true formula? Small engine + correct gearing + lightweight package = great gas mileage.

If BMW came out with the E30 again, but in a slightly more modern (to meet emission standards) formula, yet striving to keep the simplicity of the original, I'd be ALL OVER IT.

I don't like the electronic climate control. I did just fine with a few levers a rotating dial and a electronic switch to control the fan. I didn't need anything more than 4 speeds anyway.

Power seats are ok, but they weigh a ton. Lose them and save some weight. Do I really need 17" wheels in a fuel efficient car? I am not buying a sports car, bring back the 15's.

Maybe it is just a mid-life crisis I'm falling into early. I like simple things, things that work with less headaches. Like electronic shifters on a bicycle....REALLY? No, I'll stick with the mechanical ones TYVM.

[/rant]

Oh, and isn't technology supposed to make things easier? It doesn't feel any easier to me...

[iplante]

Tl;dr

[Apex]

Really? I guess scanning is a lost art. Amazing how lazy people can be these days...

[Jiggles]

I read it! But I disagree. A car is already a boring POS so I'd prefer POWER EVERYTHING GPS NAV JUST EVERYTHING GIVE ME EVERYTHING

It's just a sofa on wheels really

[Apex]

Jig's with the troof! LOL

[lgk]

i want the drive to be an experience, kind of like a motorcycle.
i would rather have a caterham 7 or a lotus elise, instead of a mercedes.
or a beat up jeep over an escalade.

if i did want a rolling sofa i'd get a rolls.

[adouglas]

I don't like the farkles for the most part. If it's not on the car, it can't break.

But there IS an upside. Remember how unreliable and maintenance-intensive cars were in the 60s and 70s? It was a HUGE deal if your car went 100000 miles and it needed a lot of work along the way to get there.

Sure it was easier to fix things. But the flip side was that you had to fix things regularly.

In the late 80s that all changed. The introduction of the master computer module made them much, much more reliable. I bought a 1989 Honda Civic. I drove it something like 140,000 miles and basically did nothing to it but change the oil, tires, plugs, brake pads/shoes and timing belt. The only reason I got rid of it was that another one just like it with only 60 k on it became available. I drove that one to 254,000 miles. Same deal. No real maintenance, no tuneups necessary… just replacement of normal wear items. Only sold it because I came into enough money to buy a new car.

Now I've got a Honda Fit. It's got 92000 miles on it and same thing… normal wear items and that's it. The factory manual doesn't even call for a tuneup before 100k miles. I expect this car to take me 250k miles, minimum.

So the electronics have in fact improved the car because they are more reliable and don't go out of tolerance as easily or as often.

But all the geegaws… you can keep 'em.

[Apex]

Isn't a big part of what makes cars more reliable is the advancement of the tooling used and the QC standards to make sure all is made within specifications? I think that is a bigger part than the electronics on the car.

I could easily snag a brand new Ford 4.6L V8 modular motor and convert it to run a carburetor, and it will be just as reliable without all the electronic gadgets. I just think tooling has evolved to the point that engine life is extended. The cars of the 60's and 70's were way more reliable than the cars in the early 20's. That is just simple advancement in tooling and only applying technology to make the parts work more efficiently.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Now I've got a Honda Fit. It's got 92000 miles on it and same thing… normal wear items and that's it. The factory manual doesn't even call for a tuneup before 100k miles. I expect this car to take me 250k miles, minimum.

I have an 08 Fit and love it! I hope to drive this car for at least another 100k miles. It has 72000 miles now. Bought it used with around 56k I think. It is a pretty simple machine and very fun to drive. Similar to that 89 Civic you used to have. (As you probably noticed already, haha) Just with today's required safety features. Pretty simple to work on. I plan on doing my own valve adjustment on it when it hits 100k. I am sure it can't be much more difficult than a ninjettes. Anywho I love this car. I hope for it to be my little race car someday. Well it kind of already is, it has seen quite a few autocross events since I've owned it.

My Fit...

[Boom King]

Gotta admit that when it's winter here and -20 Celcius, my ass sure loves to get toasty with those heated seats.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Boom King

Gotta admit that when it's winter here and -20 Celcius, my ass sure loves to get toasty with those heated seats.

My ass prefers heated grips!

[ajcadoo]

There are so may things wrong with the OP's logic.

There is one car that will satisfy all your complaints: a 2006 Scion xB.

-Standard A/C controls.
-35MPG Highway
-No heated seats, power seats, bluetooth, or navigation.
-15" wheels
-Extremely reliable
-If something breaks, easy fix

We live in 2012. Not 1969. Today, when you start up a modern car, it starts. Every. Time. Unless you have a dead battery. There is no cranking for 4 minutes.

Car's advance. Accessories become cheaper to include as standard components. If you don't like high-tech cars, buy an economical car. There are hundreds and hundreds of cars that you can CHOOSE to drive. But complaining about a bunch of issues that aren't truly issues just does nothing in this situation.

Or better yet, buy used! Buying new obviously won't suit you.

Nuff Said.

[Apex]

Do you work on cars at all? I seriously doubt it since you think the ONLY thing that can possibly keep a car from starting is a dead battery.

Seriously though, you missed the point. Ok, for starters, 35mpg is not great gas mileage. I don't know if you were even old enough to drive in the early 90's, but they were cranking out cars that got over 40mpg back then, and they were not hybrids. Second, the xB has to be one of the ugliest cars ever created next to the Nissan cube (just my opinion), not to mention an aerodynamic wreck. Third, the car is still an electrical nightmare.

I know cars advance. I'm in the electronics field and could easily go into automotive mechanics if I so desired. I've been working on cars, old and new, and modifying them since I was a kid. Not to mention that I understand how mass production lowers operating and production costs as technology advances. Semiconductor industry and two business degrees FTW.

Plus, your opinion of issues is just that, your opinion. Stating they are not issues does not change that fact. Just letting you know what an opinion is.

Back to topic, telling a car guy what cars are out there that lack nav, power seats, heated seats and bluetooth is like telling a baker what a pastry is supposed to be like. I can find cars with the simplistic interiors and somewhat simplistic controls, yet does that mean it is any easier to work on? Does that mean there are not going to be servos, switches, electrical wiring and sensors all over the place (assuming you know what a servo is). I am simply stating that we have the technology to make things more simplistic, yet we constantly make things more complicated. We can make a small and light car that does not have all these electronic assists yet we don't. Does the average person ever really engage the traction control? Do they maneuver the car hard enough to engage stability control? Heck most drivers out there would never need a limited slip differential (not to mention several of them probably have no idea where the oil goes in a motor).

BTW the xB still weighs in over 3000lbs. Just for reference, a 99-04 Ford Mustang GT (which has a 4.6L V8) weighed in at 3270-ish lbs. The added weight of an extra person and you have a ton more power.

Still blind to my logic?


I appreciate all they are doing to refine the motors and get more power output. I'm not objecting to fuel injection, nor am I stating that we need to go back to carbs, I am simply stating that I miss the good days when things were easy to work on. And don't start trying to tell me that they are. Ever change a crank sensor before? Some engines you have to tear a TON of stuff out to get to those. I am not objecting so much to the technological advances as to the fact that engineers design these things yet they have no idea how complicated they are making it to work on.

[Jiggles]

Here josh, you might find the information in this thread useful after Apex's response

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...2087283&page=1

[KawiKid860]

We just got an 08 Taurus since we needed another car and this one was a pretty good deal. 103k kinda high mileage but it was a well cared for fleet car, its not super high tech basic AC and radio controls, my favorite feature is the aux port so now I can use my phone/ipod for my own music. Didn't do much research on it before the test drive so I didn't realize there were 263 ponies waiting to be let loose under the hood so on the test drive when I floored it getting on the highway I got a nice surprise. Moral of the story is I like my new car and there are couches that aren't super ritzy and still reliable :P

[Mountain Dew]

Originally Posted by Apex

If BMW came out with the E30 again, but in a slightly more modern (to meet emission standards) formula, yet striving to keep the simplicity of the original, I'd be ALL OVER IT.

Not sure if you realize this or not, but 80s BMWs were the biggest electrical disasters since British cars in the 60s. Not to mention their plastic water pumps.

I get where you're coming from though. My bike has no computer, no electronic ANYTHING. There's about 50 wires on the entire bike. My diagnostic tool isn't a fancy hand-held computer, it's a multimeter. Ah, the simple life.

Ignition is: breaker points/condensers (set points gap and ignition timing manually), coils, and spark plugs. Everything can be checked and set with two screwdrivers and feeler gauges. No computer or CDI box here to go bad.

Charging system is: alternator, regular/rectifier, and battery. Everything can be checked with a multimeter.

Fuel system is: Tank, petcock, fuel lines, and carbs. They're not fancy, delicate CV carbs with those sissy little diaphragms, they're manly vacuum carbs with SLIDES. Although I'm a little disappointed there's no accelerator pump, it's one less thing to worry about. Jets are cheap and plentiful, and very easy to change out.

Engine is: Single overhead cam, tappet valves, and air cooled. Don't need to deal with a radiator/thermostat, valve shims, or getting the cam timing dead on with two cams. Valve adjustment is done with a screwdriver and feeler gauges. Takes me about 10 minutes.

Although I'll admit I'm spoiled with an electric starter, I can't use my kickstart because there's a clearance issue with the kickstart.

I do agree that all these fancy computers and comforts and buttons make the average car owner lazy, and they don't learn ANYTHING about cars/maintenance, but I forgot what I was going to say.

Long story short, everyone should learn **** about cars >:|

[folky15]

Originally Posted by Apex

Oh, and isn't technology supposed to make things easier? It doesn't feel any easier to me...

To the OP, I agree with parts of your post...but not exactly sure what your overall point is? Just lamenting that many modern cars aren't designed with your needs in mind?

Many customers do want heated seats, navigation, etc and it shows in the product offerings from vehicle manufacturers. Besides, some technology you wouldn't want to live without. Windshield wipers? I'm sure some people long ago thought they were 'unnecessary' and just something to break. Air Conditioning? Airbags? Etc...all advances in technology that you now 'need'. This generation will grow up thinking they need navigation, bluetooth, traction control, etc. Just the way things go.

I would imagine that 'ease of repair' is pretty low on the list of Ford's design priorities. Since most people just bring their issues to a repair shop anyways, i suppose its just more job security for those who actually know how to work on these things As cars get more advanced, the skills needed to repair them become more specialized. Sounds like you're fortunate to have those skills, despite the frustrations

[folky15]

Originally Posted by Apex

Just for reference, a 99-04 Ford Mustang GT (which has a 4.6L V8) weighed in at 3270-ish lbs. The added weight of an extra person and you have a ton more power.

That's what I drive and it's a blast! Almost as fun as riding the 250 or my bicycle all over the place.

I still wish the Stang were lighter, but of course, safety requirements play a huge role in modern car obesity. Designing for safety can be accomplished either via heavy/cheap materials, or lightweight/expensive materials. Usually the economical method wins.

[Monkeytofu]

You can still work on the electronics of your car, it just requires a totally different approach. Just because you aren't able to transfer your skills from a world with "simpler" mechanics than today's doesn't mean it's overly complex and more prone to breaking than yesterday's machine. It just means you aren't willing to learn or put the same effort you did for older tech into emerging technology.

At one point horse drawn carriages were faster than steam trains and early cars. I'm sure their enthusiasts scoffed at how "complex" and "fancy" those newfangled contraptions were. They were made so you had to take your vehicle to a shop to have it fixed! Why do that when you could just feed and replace your horse on your own?

[Apex]

Meh, I think it just gets to me how engineers over-engineer things. How they think just throwing more gadgets in a car somehow refines it, but only takes the fun factor out of it (not to mention making it hard to work on). As a business guy, I know good and well they do this to ensure things have a shelf life. It is guaranteed income on a car makers part. Of course they won't admit it. Engineers know how heat will mess with electronics, yet they throw them right there by the engine. It is only a matter of time before it ends up at the dealer, or they have to order a replacement part. Granted, they "try" to isolate heat from the part, but tossing a circuit board in a plastic case isn't the answer. The plastic can only take so many heat cycles and such an amount of temperature before it cracks due to ozone and thermal wear. Granted a lot of the engineering has a purpose, but honestly it worked fine before, no need to reinvent the wheel (unless some gov't agency says they have to meet some new standard). I feel like it is that whole "what have you done for me lately" on the consumer's part.

To me the character of the car comes down to handling these days. The older engines had a fun factor to them. Sure they handled bad compared to what we have today, but they were fun. The old 5.0 Ford V8's felt like there was a small power adder under the hood. It was a dog beneath 2500rpm, then it woke up and grew a pair over that.

The BMW was just an example, all cars in the 80's had issues. My '85 Mustang definitely did, but that was because the guy before me rigged several parts of the car to get it running. It ran for a year with no issues, after that I was chasing signals all over.

As for the weight, I just think they are going too far. You don't need a ton of materials to get a 4-banger under the 2.5K mark. Heck, Honda did pretty well with the Civic. It is about 2700lbs, still lower than some others. I had a Civic EX once upon a time, it was fun, but lacked character. The engines are too smooth. You don't make something like a Civic Si or a Mustang GT and make it refined and butter smooth. People who tend to drive sporty cars like that like to feel the power. They'd sacrifice bottom end for top end power. Car makers overlook that. If motorcycles felt like a 1990's CRX HF, there would most likely be no motorcycles out there anymore. Yet that is exactly what cars are feeling like these days. No character, no juevos. Just boring.

But back to my original post...my debate is with how accessible things are under the hood. They cram so much in there it is almost impossible for a garage guy to get to everything without specialized tools. Back in the day regular tools would get you everywhere on a vehicle. Now you need scanners (which I have) and other specialty items to access everything under the hood. That is where I was going with the whole rant about my old '69 Chevy. That was easy to work on, easy to get to everything. So much is going on under the hood these days to do simple things under the hood tends to take twice to three times as long.

For instance:
Old days = replacing coil
Remove one, maybe two screws, unplug ground, tach wire, power wire and plug wire. Replace.

Current = referencing my Impala
1. Remove cover plate over coil pack (two very hard to reach screws)
2. remove all spare plug wires
3. get a 1/4 drive socket set with universal joint
4. Remove 4-6 screws that secure it to the intake manifold
5. Unplug two hard to reach connectors from the coil pack
6. Wiggle it out without busting up your knuckles
7. Pray that you can get the new one back in there without dropping any of the screws.

It is junk like that which annoys me. Could they have mounted it easier? Definitely. Like the tools I work on at my job. You can tell some engineer designed it because you have to remove 50 things to get to this one thing, and that one thing fails more often than the stuff you have to remove. It is retarded. Sure saving space is the key, but some things should be designed with removal in mind. Like the coil pack on my Impala, it does not need that many screws to secure it to the intake manifold.

Blah, my rant is over. I feel better though.

[Apex]

Originally Posted by Monkeytofu

You can still work on the electronics of your car, it just requires a totally different approach. Just because you aren't able to transfer your skills from a world with "simpler" mechanics than today's doesn't mean it's overly complex and more prone to breaking than yesterday's machine. It just means you aren't willing to learn or put the same effort you did for older tech into emerging technology.

At one point horse drawn carriages were faster than steam trains and early cars. I'm sure their enthusiasts scoffed at how "complex" and "fancy" those newfangled contraptions were. They were made so you had to take your vehicle to a shop to have it fixed! Why do that when you could just feed and replace your horse on your own?

I can, and do, transfer it. I am an electronics technician by trade.

[Apex]

Originally Posted by Mountain Dew

I do agree that all these fancy computers and comforts and buttons make the average car owner lazy, and they don't learn ANYTHING about cars/maintenance, but I forgot what I was going to say.

Long story short, everyone should learn **** about cars >:|

Heck, I forgot what I was going to say for half these posts. Just trying to stay awake at work.


I agree though, people should know how to work on their cars. If not repairs, at least where the battery is kept (had to show a guy his BMW's battery was in the trunk), how to put on a spare tire, how to change wiper blades, and for crying out loud...how to check the oil.

[Apex]

Oh, and I would like to give apologies if I came across as a prick. That is not my intention. Kinda moody here lately. lol

[Mountain Dew]

Oh, I remember one thing I was going to say.

Cars nowadays are seen as appliances by most, rather than a privilege, learning tool, or even actual transportation. Much like cell phones (remember when nokia bricks with interchangable face plates were king?) They cram so much crap into a phone now that it's basically a computer that fits in your pocket, and has a function to make a phone call.

[Apex]

I miss my old Nokia. The only cell phone that I had for 5 years before Cingular cancelled the analog coverage. BOOOOO! I miss being able to get a cell phone signal EVERYWHERE. lol Now there are so many places where my iPhone won't snag a signal.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by Apex

Really? I guess scanning is a lost art. Amazing how lazy people can be these days...

You have an audience to market your thoughts to, when that market changes you're free to to change your product to match...or not. The same goes for vehicles. People nowadays want vehicles that get great gas mileage and have lots of power, and do so for many hundreds of thousands of miles with minimal maintenance. For the most part modern vehicles come closer to that ideal than ever before. Gone are the days when overhauls of major engine parts such as carbureters were considered routine maintenance, when you had to replace a double-handful of ignition parts every 12-15K miles because they wore out. It took a lot of technology under the hood to get better mileage, power, and reliability, technology that I for one am grateful for.

I'll agree with you on the move to computer-control basic electrical items like lighting, there's a point of unecessary complexity that got passed there.

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by adouglas

I don't like the farkles for the most part. If it's not on the car, it can't break.

But there IS an upside. Remember how unreliable and maintenance-intensive cars were in the 60s and 70s? It was a HUGE deal if your car went 100000 miles and it needed a lot of work along the way to get there.
Sure it was easier to fix things. But the flip side was that you had to fix things regularly.

In the late 80s that all changed. The introduction of the master computer module made them much, much more reliable. I bought a 1989 Honda Civic. I drove it something like 140,000 miles and basically did nothing to it but change the oil, tires, plugs, brake pads/shoes and timing belt. The only reason I got rid of it was that another one just like it with only 60 k on it became available. I drove that one to 254,000 miles. Same deal. No real maintenance, no tuneups necessary… just replacement of normal wear items. Only sold it because I came into enough money to buy a new car.

Now I've got a Honda Fit. It's got 92000 miles on it and same thing… normal wear items and that's it. The factory manual doesn't even call for a tuneup before 100k miles. I expect this car to take me 250k miles, minimum.

So the electronics have in fact improved the car because they are more reliable and don't go out of tolerance as easily or as often.

But all the geegaws… you can keep 'em.

Probably averages out..... Old cars didnt go down the highway @ 1500rpm's.
Rip all the crap off a 80-90's motor, install a nice carb and ignition. Boy does it wake that motor up. Will it pass emissions test? no..

Is really funny how they put all the BS on a so called performace cars now days thou.

[Heed]

I really wish it was like the olden days when you could get a hole punch and check exactly what you want and didn't want in a car as if you're writing an order, but that will never happen again unless you're buying a Maybach or something.

These days, the typical car comes in 3 different packages (or trims, whatever you want to call it)...don't want the sat/nav? too bad. Want 4WD? too bad, you'll have to but the LT badge and everything else that comes with it.

[AznJoJo]

I love the e30 BMW! That was the car I learned how to drive in (manual mind you :P). Although I see myself as a minimalist, I think cars found there sweet spot in the 80's - 90's. They had just the right amount of power comforts but didn't go too crazy like they are nowadays. I hope we get to the point where driving is automated and those who prefer to manually control their cars are thought of as enthusiasts. Then we'll really appreciate driving.

[Apex]

No way would I trust a computer to do my driving! Computer locks up in the car and your speed goes to 70mph and you can't stop while everyone else is at a red light ahead. Yeah that will nip that one real fast. lol

[Heed]

it also kind of pisses me off when I see these Mercedes that make your seat vibrate when you're drifting into the wrong lane using sonar or something like that.

i would much rather people just learn how to drive

[Jono]

Wanna k now what really makes me sad about modern cars? I'll tell you. Only 6.5% of new vehicles sold in America are manual transmissions. http://content.usatoday.com/communit...1#.UCSpkqPuCuk

It makes me so mad. Why are Americans so damn lazy. Manuals are so fun to drive and you actually need to pay attention to what you are doing in traffic. You are more connected with the car and the **** going on around you. Last week I stopped by a local Toyota dealership to see the FR-S in person. It was so awesome but then I looked inside the car. And it was an automatic. Like REALLY Toyota, your gonna put a slushbox in a car made for an enthusiast. That is stupid. I love that Honda only offered the S2000 in a manual. And for that, I love them. I realize that Toyota is just trying to sell the car in America and they will be able to sell that auto to the idiots who don't get what the car really is.

Sorry just ranting.

[Mountain Dew]

Sorry, but the FRS is a ricemobile for mommy and daddy to buy hellaflush jdm stance whip jr., because it's reasonably priced (compared to other sport coupe/sedans).

If they REALLY wanted to make a true enthusiast car, here's some stuff they should/shouldn't have done.

1. Shouldn't have sold it as a scion, because everyone knows scion are girl and douchebag cars.

2. Shouldn't have given it ABS. Obvious reason here.

3. Shouldn't have given it traction and stability control. Again, obvious reasons.

4. Should have made it at most 2300 lbs. Removing all those frivolous driver aids would've helped greatly.

5. Should have made it FMR layout.

6. Shouldn't have had drifting in the commercials.

7. Should have given it a straight 6, or maybe even a turbo i4.

[Apex]

I am happy that the Ford Focus ST is going to only be available in a stick. That makes me happy, just like the Subie STI.

[Mountain Dew]

But it's still FWD...

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Mountain Dew

Sorry, but the FRS is a ricemobile for mommy and daddy to buy hellaflush jdm stance whip jr., because it's reasonably priced (compared to other sport coupe/sedans).

Yeah, unfortunately that is what it is going to become. I can't stand all those stupid ass JDM hellalush stance folks. It is one of the stupidest things one could do to a vehicle. It is like the new rice. Except rice was actually better in my mind. It was cheap. Haha. All these dumbasses are buying expensive wheels and suspension and other farkles that completely ruin a cars performance and looks. But to each their own. I try to avoid talking to people who do this to their cars. Someday they might realize how stupid it is. I actually like driving cars and can appreciate all the engineering that was put into a car to make it do what it does. I am not going to ruin everything that the engineers did to make a car handle great.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Mountain Dew

2. Shouldn't have given it ABS. Obvious reason here.

3. Shouldn't have given it traction and stability control. Again, obvious reasons.

4. Should have made it at most 2300 lbs. Removing all those frivolous driver aids would've helped greatly.

Sorry, but this isn't accurate. ESC has been mandatory on new cars sold in the US after September 2011.

link to news story

link to final rule itself on NHTSA site

ABS isn't mandatory per se, but since you can't do ESC without the same hardware and sensors as ESC anyway, it would be more troublesome to not have it.

Neither of those control systems have very much to do with the weight of a new car.

[Apex]

Originally Posted by Jono

Yeah, unfortunately that is what it is going to become. I can't stand all those stupid ass JDM hellalush stance folks. It is one of the stupidest things one could do to a vehicle. It is like the new rice. Except rice was actually better in my mind. It was cheap. Haha. All these dumbasses are buying expensive wheels and suspension and other farkles that completely ruin a cars performance and looks. But to each their own. I try to avoid talking to people who do this to their cars. Someday they might realize how stupid it is. I actually like driving cars and can appreciate all the engineering that was put into a car to make it do what it does. I am not going to ruin everything that the engineers did to make a car handle great.

I never understood taking a perfectly good car and slamming it to the ground so far it is 100% impossible to get the camber set properly (not to mention clear a speed bump). I have see so many cars with worn out inner sections of tires because they wanted the low rider look. They put all this visual stuff on there to make someone think it is fast. When you have so little room for wheel movement, if the road gets choppy, under heavy power, the wheels would actually skip across the pavement. Yup real fast!

Also, I never understood putting the largest wheel possible on the car. It is like several of them have no clue what unsprung weight is. Meh, I never understood putting neons under the car as well. Farkles are such a waste of money in my opinion. Yet others don't care about performance, they just want to do what is pleasing to their eye, and that is fine by me. To each their own.

[dirty nasty]

I like my cars/trucks to be pretty bare-bones. Even then, the cars I like are luxo-barges compared to some of the junk my mother drove. I just like crank windows, manual transmissions, no power seats, no auto climate control, no need to connect to my phone (I do like having my cassette adapter so I can listen to my mp3 player), cloth seats, no carpet if that's an option, no traction control (I do like ABS and 4 wheel disc brakes though) or other electronic aids, power steering depends on what vehicle it is. Keep all the really luxurious stuff. It's all electronic and breaks. It kills the resale of the car when all the electronic stuff is broken (usually because there are no manual backups/substitutes for such functions) and needs to be repaired.

Plus it frustrates me, the end user, for having had all this stuff and having it taken away. My first car had a LOT of power features and it was great while it lasted. One by one each feature broke. Eventually my car was "crippled" in a sense. Such examples of the power seat went out when my mom moved it way up. Driving became a HUGE challenege after that. I'm 6'1" and my mom is pushing 5'2". How the hell am I supposed to drive after that!? The auto climate control broke too so I had no more heat/AC, which meant on some days I couldn't defrost and I was driving with my head sticking out the window. My power window got stuck in the up position which I can't stand. So I removed it and put a tarp over my window when I parked in the rain. When I was driving I was getting rained on. Power sun roof crapped out in the open position.

As long as they keep producing base model vehicles I'll be happy. I like some newer features, but longevity of them is what I look for.

[Gurk]

I have AC, heated seats, bluetooth phone setup, navigation, sunroof, non-sport suspension. And I love it all. My car for me is to have a luxary ride in. I can relax and be comfortable. If I wanted a sports car, I wouldn't need any of the above.



And here's where I don't need any bluetooth, navigation, or any luxary items: