What's up with Kkim??

[almost40]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i think he got scared off by all the crazy politics and jibber jabbing...


yes...


jibber jabbing.

Kelly doesnt get involved in that stuff.

[Alex]

Hi folks -

I think Kelly is going to be taking a break from the forums. This saddens me. While he is not only our most prolific poster, he manages to make so many of his posts so helpful to newbies and veterans alike. Without going into great detail or breaking any confidences, I feel comfortable sharing that the occasionally more negative tone recently had a direct effect on this forum's great loss. To some here this more combative tone may be unnoticed, to some they might even disagree that it's present, but it's real enough to a number of the longer-term posters here that things have been a bit different. It's a given that as a forum grows from a few dozen to a few hundred to a few thousand members that the culture shifts along the way. I just hope that what allowed it to grow and thrive is retained in spirit as we continue to grow.

I don't have any easy answers on how these things happen, or how they get turned around. I don't think it's more moderation. I don't think it's less moderation. There is no technology available to encourage people to behave kinder than they would otherwise. I think I will be more open about calling people out when they are behaving poorly, and you all should do the same. If there are suggestions on what I could or should be doing to help us get back to where we were, post up here or message me privately.

This is what I wrote back in June 2008 (it's at the top of the FAQ):

Originally Posted by Alex

I started this website because as much as I love the 250, I was never fond of any of the other 250 sites on the net. They either had a terribly clunky interface, an overdose of advertising, a limited community feel, and a bunch of other issues that I've probably forgotten. I want ninjette.org to be different. A genuinely fun place for 250R owners to come and chat about their bikes and motorcycling in general, with all of the latest features that modern website forum software can provide. It's only been up for short while, but it's starting to be found on the larger search engines, and traffic will undoubtedly continue to creep up. I'm an experienced vBulletin guy and will make sure that this board not only has all the right doodads and features, but also the controls in place to make sure that it remains easy to use, easy on the eyes, and generally a low-stress place to spend some time on the net. Thanks for stopping by, and I hope you stick around awhile. - Alex

I believed then, and believe now, that if people can find a friendly and helpful place to chat about their bikes, they will be more inclined to both share what they know, as well as be more receptive to learning from others how to go about this whole motorcycling experience. People die needlessly when they don't have the skills they need. People get hurt needlessly when they don't have the skills or gear they even realized they needed. People leave the sport very early on after having a scare due to lack of peers, mentors, skills, gear, or availability of training, and they lose a chance at a life-long hobby that can undoubtedly be life-affirming. No, this is nothing more than a silly internet forum where fellow Ninja 250 fans can chat about anything and everything, but while they are doing so, this forum, and we posters on it, can truly help eachother, especially those so green to motorcycles in general. The kinder we are, the more helpful we are, the more useful this forum becomes. And it remains a fun place to spend time at while between rides.

[Snake]

I believe that if a thread is started the OP should be an active participant in their thread and not just ask a question followed by "Discuss". Those type of threads should be banned/locked because their purpose is only to pit forum members against eachother while the OP looks on and laughs.
A thread/member should be banned if the OP asks members for their opinions and then proceeds to flame them because their opinion differs from that of the OP.
This forum continues to be the friendliest forum I have been on and members band together when a "bad apple" tries to ruin the bunch.
I believe that more moderators would be a bad idea. I have seen forums where members are tasked as moderators and they let the power go to their heads and start flaming new members for asking questions that may have already been posted instead of helping them by leading them in the right direction.

[ally99]

Hopefully he'll be back. I can't imagine Ninjette without him.
I, too, have seen the change as the site grew. I think it seems to be inevitable...as forums grow and populations increase, so do opinion differences. Differences in opinion manifest themselves much differently behind the anonymity of an online forum, and people tend to speak their mind with less tact than if they actually felt like the knew the person behind the screen. This seems to hold true particularly when a forum has so many members that the personal feeling of knowing each member dissolves so much that you can't even keep up with everyone's name!
You're in a tough place, Alex, because you obviously want to let users speak their mind and not censor their words for them, however, in giving the members too much freedom, we do lose some of the family/community feel we've always had here. It reminds me of my job. I'm an elementary teacher, and sometimes finding that fine line between too much freedom and too little is nothing more than a lucky (or unlucky) guess.
Other than limiting Ninjette to small numbers and/or only active members, I can't think of a way to "fix" the problems that have risen as of late. I can understand why we wouldn't want to limit our numbers though.

[gfloyd2002]

I do think more of us need to back Alex up and defend the forums better than we have. Not allowing personal insult to another poster or their opinion pass without comment. Redirecting threads to positive discussion. Reminding people of the need for civility, etc. Tell people who can't figure it out for themselves that there is a way to express differences of opinion civilly, keeping it from becoming personal. Ask more questions about the basis of an opinion, caveat a response by noting that it isn't personal, say something positive about the good aspects of post you disagree with, etc. before you take on the post. The Socratic Method is a great way to respectfully note problems in a post by simply asking a question - something I noticed kkim do a few times.

That said, it is a difficult thing to decide whether taking someone on in an attempt to confront poor behavior is making things worse. It is also sometimes hard to decide whether someone's combativeness is a misunderstanding, a short term lapse (which many of us have had) or a broader character issue.

If a misunderstanding or a good member in a bad moment, informal reminders will be all it takes. But if a larger character issue, attempts by other members to redirect the thread and remind about etiquette just aren't going to work. There are a couple of members who fall into this category, and we know who they are. In such cases, I would be very pleased to see a heavier hand by Alex take that person's posting ability quietly and quickly away. I'd rather lose someone who is behaving poorly and maintain a positive, productive forum than to lose someone like kkim. Frankly, I'm pretty mad that a great resource on the ninjette isn't able to help hundreds of us because of the lack of civility of a few.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by gfloyd2002

I do think more of us need to back Alex up and defend the forums better than we have. Not allowing personal insult to another poster or their opinion pass without comment. Redirecting threads to positive discussion. Reminding people of the need for civility, etc. Tell people who can't figure it out for themselves that there is a way to express differences of opinion civilly, keeping it from becoming personal. Ask more questions about the basis of an opinion, caveat a response by noting that it isn't personal, say something positive about the good aspects of post you disagree with, etc. before you take on the post. The Socratic Method is a great way to respectfully note problems in a post by simply asking a question - something I noticed kkim do a few times.

That said, it is a difficult thing to decide whether taking someone on in an attempt to confront poor behavior is making things worse. It is also sometimes hard to decide whether someone's combativeness is a misunderstanding, a short term lapse (which many of us have had) or a broader character issue.

If a misunderstanding or a good member in a bad moment, informal reminders will be all it takes. But if a larger character issue, attempts by other members to redirect the thread and remind about etiquette just aren't going to work. There are a couple of members who fall into this category, and we know who they are. In such cases, I would be very pleased to see a heavier hand by Alex take that person's posting ability quietly and quickly away. I'd rather lose someone who is behaving poorly and maintain a positive, productive forum than to lose someone like kkim. Frankly, I'm pretty mad that a great resource on the ninjette isn't able to help hundreds of us because of the lack of civility of a few.

+100 Well spoken!

[CZroe]

Politics. I know you said you wanted us to be able to talk about anything, Alex, but talking politics only makes friends with those who already agree. If we were all friends to begin with, a political discussion may end up alienating half the forum and aligning them against each other. I've responded to quite a few political posts but I wouldn't mind if they weren't here in the first place or were at least discouraged. Just a note about keeping things civil/friendly and, thus, advising that users *may* want to avoid discussions about political issues. Anytime someone wants to stir the pot, we can all point to that and refuse to participate.

[CynicalC]

Man you all seriously need to get off this guys nuts. You treat him like the messiah, essentially because he knows how to use the search function. Maybe he just has better things to do. He took his ball and went home. Stop whining about it like little kids. Get a new ball and move on with your lives. This thread is pathetic.

[TnNinjaGirl]

^ ban?

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

Man you all seriously need to get off this guys nuts. You treat him like the messiah, essentially because he knows how to use the search function. Maybe he just has better things to do. He took his ball and went home. Stop whining about it like little kids. Get a new ball and move on with your lives. This thread is pathetic.

I know you're probably trolling for laughs, but I'll bite. Have you noticed just how many of this forum's DIY threads are written by him? Have you noticed just how many troubleshooting threads he has assisted in? The man is a legend here for more reasons than simply using the search function.

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl

^ ban?

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by CZroe

I know you're probably trolling for laughs, but I'll bite. Have you noticed just how many of this forum's DIY threads are written by him? Have you noticed just how many troubleshooting threads he has assisted in? The man is a legend here for more reasons than simply using the search function.

Not trolling at all. Sure the guy helped a lot of people. But he didn't write the book on the ninja 250. He's good at compiling information, and sharing it with people. But it was only a few years ago where he was a guy just like everyone else asking the same stupid questions about shimming needles. Nobody wants to see anyone else go, but the guy has a life and betterthings to do, I'm sure.

Maybe he's trying to teach you all that life will go on without him.

[ninja250]

Originally Posted by CZroe

I know you're probably trolling for laughs, but I'll bite. Have you noticed just how many of this forum's DIY threads are written by him? Have you noticed just how many troubleshooting threads he has assisted in? The man is a legend here for more reasons than simply using the search function.

A good many of the DIY were taken from other members at other forums.

Not to say Kkim isn't the bomb, but so are others!

He's a good guy though and knows his stuff, I'd hate to see him "unbecome" a member on Ninjette. I can definitely admit to learning a lot from Kkim.

Perhaps the ol guy just needs a break. He'll be back, like me.

I got fed up with attitudes around here year or two ago when I crashed and received no support from my online friends.. rather was badgered into the ground. I know I did wrong but sure could have used a more friendly approach. Instead I made you "The ninjette .org T-shirt".
I ruined my brand new motorcycle and was laughed out of court for it here.

People really do need to get off the soapboax around here and give back instead of biting the hand that feeds. This CAN be a good forum STILL when it tries. The populous has to give back as a whole like it used to.

(PERHAPS NINJETTE.ORG BBQ's are a good way for people to meet face to face and be nicer to eachother!!!!@) We do it on the GSXR forums and assemble packs of ride dawg gangs.

I know for sure the crashed economy isn't making things any easier on me and it must not be making things easier on anyone else. The harsh tone we carry around isn't going to help anyone or anything though.

If Kkim doesn't come back then he's a big baby. C'mon dude you can't leave a bunch of people waiting around who actually want you to be here. That just becomes vein?

What's the real problem? Who got his panties in a knot?

[gfloyd2002]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

Man you all seriously need to get off this guys nuts. You treat him like the messiah, essentially because he knows how to use the search function. Maybe he just has better things to do. He took his ball and went home. Stop whining about it like little kids. Get a new ball and move on with your lives. This thread is pathetic.

There is value in working as a forum to encourage civility and try to set some group norms. That isn't pathetic, but an honorable goal. This thread has become about more than kkim, but about aggressive postings.

Your post, for example, calling people whiners and pathetic, is intended to demean other members posting here. The people you demean are good people, well educated people, people who contribute quite a bit to the forum.

I respect your opinion about the discussion, but if you state that opinion in a way that is more productive and respectful of other members, it will get a better response. Your second post on the topic in response to CZRoe, for example.

[ninja250]

You also have another problem here.
You are mixing ninja 250 riders with riders of other, larger bikes.
Things will get ugly around here.
Not to mention nobody here seems to be savvy to the fact that there are motorcycle stunting forums where people stunt and do stuff all day long that would make the folks on Ninjatte "roll over in their graves".

I don't understand how it's not accepted here that motorcycles are fun to ride and can be stunted and dragged etc etc. It's like any fun on a mtoorcycle is completely frowned upon here. That's not fun.
Instead, support it, and tell the people to get out into open areas where they won't get hurt or take it to the track.

Kkim was good at that one...

I may have actually gone some day if Kkim said it enough and now that he's gone there's no possible way! (lol j/k but you know what I mean brother from Hawaii)

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by gfloyd2002

There is value in working as a forum to encourage civility and try to set some group norms. That isn't pathetic, but an honorable goal. This thread has become about more than kkim, but about aggressive postings.

Your post, for example, calling people whiners and pathetic, is intended to demean other members posting here. The people you demean are good people, well educated people, people who contribute quite a bit to the forum.

I respect your opinion about the discussion, but if you state that opinion in a way that is more productive and respectful of other members, it will get a better response. Your second post on the topic in response to CZRoe, for example.

Well I'm sorry if you found what I had to say offensive, but it wasn't "intended to demean" as you say. It was intended to show you how silly you look. Bunch of grown men slobbering over some other dude.

[greg737]

Colin.....that is funny beyond words....what's he shouting...what are the people inside saying ?

[ninja250]

I learned a lot here and I was also hurt here and pushed away.

It's a shame it's like that but I think I see Alex's point.

How on earth can you honestly fix it?

The only way is more moderation with a lighter hand.

Have tons of time on your hands Alex?

I know I sure don't.

Maybe you need to take a bit of time and select a few additional public notified moderators.
Some good down home people. You know, like SNAKE or somebody.

[Kevin2109]

Originally Posted by ninja250

I learned a lot here and I was also hurt here and pushed away.

It's a shame it's like that but I think I see Alex's point.

How on earth can you honestly fix it?

The only way is more moderation with a lighter hand.

Have tons of time on your hands Alex?

I know I sure don't.

Maybe you need to take a bit of time and select a few additional public notified moderators.
Some good down home people. You know, like SNAKE or somebody.

+1 I vote snake!

[Honko]

Originally Posted by ninja250

You also have another problem here.
You are mixing ninja 250 riders with riders of other, larger bikes.
Things will get ugly around here.
Not to mention nobody here seems to be savvy to the fact that there are motorcycle stunting forums where people stunt and do stuff all day long that would make the folks on Ninjatte "roll over in their graves".

I don't understand how it's not accepted here that motorcycles are fun to ride and can be stunted and dragged etc etc. It's like any fun on a mtoorcycle is completely frowned upon here. That's not fun.
Instead, support it, and tell the people to get out into open areas where they won't get hurt or take it to the track.

Kkim was good at that one...

I may have actually gone some day if Kkim said it enough and now that he's gone there's no possible way! (lol j/k but you know what I mean brother from Hawaii)

I don't think it's looked down upon that people stunt/drag/etc their bike (other than in the context that it can be bad for the bike). I haven't gone through every single post on these forums so I can't say with 100% certainty, but usually when there is a negative response to something of this sort, it's usually because it is done on a public road or a highway where they are putting themselves severely at risk as well as those around them. I don't think anyone here is denying that stunting is pretty cool (at least if they know what they're doing ).

[almost40]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

But it was only a few years ago where he was a guy just like everyone else asking the same stupid questions about shimming needles.

A few years or a couple decades ago?

[Kevin2109]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

Well I'm sorry if you found what I had to say offensive, but it wasn't "intended to demean" as you say. It was intended to show you how silly you look. Bunch of grown men slobbering over some other dude.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Snake]

People let's please get back to Alex's request for opinions on how to fix the problems that have started here. I am confident that both Alex and KKim will agree that this is not about KKim, it is about how do we fix this. If you have suggestions then please post. If you want to bash then don't post here but go to a PM if you feel that strongly about bashing them.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Snake

People let's please get back to Alex's request for opinions on how to fix the problems that have started here. I am confident that both Alex and KKim will agree that this is not about KKim, it is about how do we fix this. If you have suggestions then please post. If you want to bash then don't post here but go to a PM if you feel that strongly about bashing them.

fight intolerance with tolerance. not more intolerance.

+1 on PMing your hate

[Alex]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

Man you all seriously need to get off this guys nuts. You treat him like the messiah, essentially because he knows how to use the search function. Maybe he just has better things to do. He took his ball and went home. Stop whining about it like little kids. Get a new ball and move on with your lives. This thread is pathetic.

Colin - it's not blind worship of a messiah who turns out to be human. You're unaware of the history of this site. Kelly was one of the first members here who almost singlehandedly pulled in the useful and helpful posters from the dreck on the other ninja 250 boards, to create a home here that would be welcomed. And welcoming. Truly hundreds of members are here exclusively due to Kkim's individual invite and explaining about what we were trying to do here. They followed him here because they respected him on the sites that he was already known on, and his opinion was valued from the beginning. The site would be here, and the functionality would be here, but what this has become is much more due to the efforts of that one poster than you are giving credit to. Crapping on him as just another nameless/faceless poster among thousands, or crapping on this place as just another forum, the same as any other, isn't fair to him or us. In the past year or two, the growth here has built on itself such that search engines are enough to bring hundreds of thousands (soon millions) of pageviews per month, and for better or worse, a personal touch is no longer necessary to gain members or build traffic.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by alex.s

+1 on PMing your hate

you have a PM

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Snake

People let's please get back to Alex's request for opinions on how to fix the problems that have started here. I am confident that both Alex and KKim will agree that this is not about KKim, it is about how do we fix this. If you have suggestions then please post. If you want to bash then don't post here but go to a PM if you feel that strongly about bashing them.

+1,000!! THIS is the kind of stuff that's running people off lately. Everyone needs to learn when to DROP IT and write more informative, productive posts.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

you have a PM

Um, and you posted that here rather than JUST PMing him? I mean, come on. He'd see the PM when he logged in...you writing that here was just to keep things going.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by ally99

Um, and you posted that here rather than JUST PMing him? I mean, come on. He'd see the PM when he logged in...you writing that here was just to keep things going.

I did send him a PM, and it was a nice one. it wasn't meant to keep anything going, nor will it. You took that wrong

[ally99]

LOL! I sit corrected. It just seemed a bit rhetorical is all. Glad you guys have found some peace.

[alex.s]

i think the best way to cope with our sudden and tragic loss...
have fun with our bikes! do something awesome to your bike. find an awesome new way to do something. make some fancy new farkle or find a new way to add +10hp to your bike with a sticker. then write a DIY about it and encourage others to do the same. make some sweet carbon fiber bodywork with some killer light mods that transform into a robot and most of all have fun doing it! kkim was a great contributor, but he's allowed to make his own decisions. the best thing we can do is continue his great tradition and post quality content

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by Alex

Colin - it's not blind worship of a messiah who turns out to be human. You're unaware of the history of this site. Kelly was one of the first members here who almost singlehandedly pulled in the useful and helpful posters from the dreck on the other ninja 250 boards, to create a home here that would be welcomed. And welcoming. Truly hundreds of members are here exclusively due to Kkim's individual invite and explaining about what we were trying to do here. They followed him here because they respected him on the sites that he was already known on, and his opinion was valued from the beginning. The site would be here, and the functionality would be here, but what this has become is much more due to the efforts of that one poster than you are giving credit to. Crapping on him as just another nameless/faceless poster among thousands, or crapping on this place as just another forum, the same as any other, isn't fair to him or us. In the past year or two, the growth here has built on itself such that search engines are enough to bring hundreds of thousands (soon millions) of pageviews per month, and for better or worse, a personal touch is no longer necessary to gain members or built traffic.

I'm not crapping on him or this site. This is a great place, there are a lot of good people here and he was one of them. But just because he left doesn't mean everyone's tech questions will go unanswered. There are plenty of other people with the knowledge, experience and willingness to help. I can't think of a better analogy than "he took his ball and went home." If this place was really that important to him, he wouldn't have left over something as stupid as not liking some peoples attitudes. And if that is the reason he left, well that's juvenility beyond words.

Truthfully, the guy probably just has better things to do with his time. If he actually missed this place, the only thing keeping him from posting is his own pride. Do I need to point out how childish that is? And if he doesn't miss it, well then wish him well and move on your lives like he has!

[headshrink]

I noticed about 20 min. ago that Kelly's avatar disappeared. In fact, I am so accustomed to seeing it that at first I didn't recognize his posts. I was going to shoot out a friendly post, maybe PM, to see what's up. I felt like something happened to my "safe place"..... then I saw this thread.
I didn't read it all, but got the gist of things.

The first thing that struck me, even before reading any of this thread, was the title. It occurred to me that this poll indicates two things.... 1) kkim is loved here, considered by most to be one of the original members (who incidental recruited me back in '08), and also is one of the "go to" guys. And 2) The attention that this poll/thread has gotten, possibly even the fact someone noticed enough to start it in begin with, suggests many of the rest of us may have been leaning too heavily on him to do a bulk of the "work." I have no inside knowledge, other than what I read right here, but if I were him, I sure would get burnt out a lot quicker.

I actually have noticed a little bit of an edge here lately too.... not nearly like KF, but it has gotten a little snarky on occasion. A year or two ago I started a ride report that was in fun, and a little silly. A user insulted me, was called on it and given a chance, but was too prideful to change his ways, so he was banned. It wasn't a huge deal, but I really felt supported by Alex. I don't know why I am even mentioning that, other than reminiscing about what a supportive place this forum [still] is....

I really don't know what else to say, but I want to encourage everyone to make a concerted effort to pitch-in, keep the culture here friendly and supportive, call people (nicely) on their naughtiness, and alert Alex so he can sift out the "bad seeds" if necessary. Even if Kkim isn't posting, I'm sure he'll lurk from time to time, so lets not let him, Alex, or each other down.

[almost40]

Kelly,
If your lurking,

I hope, I, in some way, did not start the chain of events that lead you down the path you are on. I feel a little responsible for starting the...... whats up with kkim thread. It was meant as a joke. I want to apologize if I helped push you out in ANY way. It was never my intention directly or indirectly. I hope that you will reconsider at a later time and rejoin as your absence is not going unnoticed.

Ironic, to me, that you had to practicly beg me to come over here to ninjette. Now, I will soon be begging you to stay.

If you need anything or I can help in any way let me know.
Your friend,
Kevin
Keep the faith brother.

[headshrink]

Kevin,
I'm not sure, but just in case my comment was misunderstood, I was not saying your post was an issue.... It merely served to draw my attention to some of the greater issues discussed, but not in itself negative or in poor taste.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by headshrink

Kevin,
I'm not sure, but just in case my comment was misunderstood, I was not saying your post was an issue.... It merely served to draw my attention to some of the greater issues discussed, but not in itself negative or in poor taste.

No, your all good brother. I understood your post.

Thought I put my statement out there just in case. I hope he is lurking, I hope he does decide to come back.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by almost40

No, your all good brother. I understood your post.

Thought I put my statement out there just in case. I hope he is lurking, I hope he does decide to come back.

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by almost40

I hope he is lurking, I hope he does decide to come back.

If he is lurking, the only reason he wouldn't be posting is because his pride is in the way of the keyboard. Why would you all be begging for someone like that to come back?

[Alex]

Mainly, because we enjoy his posts here? Cyn - I think you're offbase here. I'm pretty confident the reverse psychology angle isn't going to be the way to goad anyone in any direction. People are disappointed that a long-time poster has chosen to leave, for an undetermined amount of time. Trying to convince them that they shouldn't be disappointed because you're not disappointed isn't a worthy pursuit.

[kbryant]

He's a good person and great contributor. Hope to see him back soon.